How was 2021?

For what it’s worth, I can see both sides. Anyone is free to post their success, but it’s a fact that those posting are most likely from the successful rather than than unsuccessful. P123 is a great tool for stock picking, but it really is just a quality data source and tool. The key is that each investor must take ownership of their own risk tolerance and invest accordingly.

While Yuval’s success is not “one off”, it certainly isn’t riskless. His microcap model had a drawdown of 50% in 2020. He even noted that in his 2020 review that he did a cash out refinance in February before the crash and put that money in his models. In hindsight that worked out great, but I imagine it didn’t feel good at the time. The next time of market turmoil may not lend itself to such a quick recovery, and the time to recover from a 50% drawdown may be many years. My point is that a 73% return inherently comes with a requisite amount of risk. These returns of Yuval’s have also been attained in unprecedented favorable market conditions.

This is not meant as a shot to any of those with outsized returns, but rather as a caution to take these stories as a way to pick up some learnings, but not as a blueprint of how to manage risk. Investing is a very psychological pursuit that will test your pain tolerance and have you questioning your methods at the worst possible times.

Overall risk management and portfolio construction including asset diversification is far more important than stock picking models. In the worst times, stock correlations move toward 1 with each other, and factors even invert. If you can’t stay in the game, financially or psychologically, having the best model won’t matter.

Be careful out there!

I am very happy for people’s posts.

I am wondering how much leverage some people were using for some of the results they are posting. That should be a part of any discussion of favorable results in a generally up market with high-beta strategies. Margin with high beta is a great strategy if you know the market direction or you have hedged properly (not a criticism). And it does not hurt if there is more to a strategy than just beta which is obviously the case for many P123 strategies (again not a criticism for the experienced).

Generally, for anyone who has a financial degree or has studied risk in a serious manner, I wonder how much margin they would recommend.

And maybe a gentle recommendation for anyone new to P123 without a proven strategy yet: advice no one would have to follow. All in for their port? Diversify into ETFs in some way? Maybe take a second mortgage on their home along with margin as has been discussed?

I am so sure that there is no one answer for everyone and that my way is not even what is truly the best strategy even for me, that I will not post what I am doing. I am happy to discuss what I do if anyone happens to have an interest (without me recommending anything). I will say it does not involve a second mortgage on my home as I think that should be obvious. There are pros for people who want serious answers (better than mine).

Jim

I just want to say that I agree with everything Charles says here (except I would say “may be” rather than “is far” in the last paragraph). My appetite for risk has given me some nice returns, but it is also very dangerous. Sometimes I lose sight of that. Thank you, Charles.

I think this has turned into an important discussion. I could write a very lengthy post on my thoughts and experience, but I’ll try and keep it as concise as possible.

As I posted, I managed to achieve a 58% return in 2021 (and 49% in 2020). This is without the use of leverage. I usually have 6-8 models on the go, both US and CAD, 20-25 holdings each (see tables below). I wrote about both years’ performance on SA:

Let me add some further background though.

A) Prior to these years, I was overconfident (in hindsight) with resulting underperformance. I started using P123 in 2016 and had some good performance early on, but nearly all my models fell apart out of sample. I was essentially out of the market 2018 and 2019, nearly giving up entirely on stock-picking. I spent nearly all of 2019 re-calibrating and performing deep dives on all subjects quantitative investing, learning a lot from the seasoned investors on this forum.

B) I am of the firm belief that the market evolves, can change at any time, and can potentially reduce the effectiveness of my models, or any given factor. For example, I often ask myself if my models just happened to work out well in a low rate environment - maybe in the new “regime” things will be different. For this reason, I spend a lot of time on investing to maintain my edge – thinking, challenging my own beliefs, reading, listening to podcasts, doing my own research, writing. Maybe I am fortunate in the sense that investing truly interests me and I am passionate about it, a never-ending puzzle to be solved, so this isn’t really work to me. That said, the kicker is that lots of work is by no means a guarantee of performance, but I do believe it will improve your chances over the long run. While my returns have been quite good the last two years, I am always looking for ways to a) maintain and b) improve my edge.

C) In my “overconfident” phase I used leverage, with initially phenomenal results, followed by disaster. This was a very humbling experience, and provides the basis for my approach in B) above. While I consider using leverage on some of my strategies, I am still very reluctant.

D) “Staying the course” - sometimes this is the hardest part. One great (theoretical) advantage of using quant models is that it removes the emotion from buying and selling. In reality, when markets are volatile, you can easily question your models. I have mostly learned to hold on in times of volatility - if the model is robust, then listen to it, as hard as it is. That said, it’s not always black and white - if there is a fundamental change in the market then it may be time to exit the model. Easier said than done.

Like others have commented, investing is very personal (almost like golf) and sometimes it’s best to compare yourself to yourself, rather than to others, as the effectiveness of your edge can ebb and flow (differently than others) with the market. I am striving to improve on this point.

All of this said, I consider myself a student of investing, always looking to learn. For more details on my approach/background:

I’d be happy to chat further with anyone on this.

Cheers,
Ryan


2020 returns.png


2021 returns.png

To consistently beat the market, it is all about BBB (in my humble opinion)

  • better data (market info, sentiment data, real time data, alternative data)
  • better models (without overfitting and strong out-of-sample performance)
  • better risk management (risk control guidelines and risk management software)

Down 50% and then Up 50% in the same year (and a few years in a row) is nothing to brag about.
This is called “streaks” in gambling. There is no need for research/data/models, it is easier to just go to Vegas and bet on Banker/Player in Baccarat.

Regards
James

For me personally, I get a lot of utility (ie made money) with P123 and I hope that P123 sticks around a very, very, very long time and if posting about a successful year(s) encourages more subscribers I’m more than happy to contribute. And, yes, I’ll echo the sentiment that every model goes through periods of under performance, so ultimately a strong stomach is greater asset than the perfect model. I use very volatile microcap models for money that I don’t plan on touching for many years, and can ride out any short term volatility. The only goal is to maximize alpha long term. I also have money invested that I could see myself needing in the next 3-5 years, in which I use a variation of Harry Browne’s Permament Portfolio. Different tools for different jobs.

The Best Stock-Fund Managers of 2021
In another tumultuous but positive year, these are the stock pickers who came out on top—led by a 67.7% gain for a small-stock fund

It looks like some of you beat the performance of best performing mutual fund in 2021.

Regards
James


USA_BRSVX_data.pdf (88.4 KB)

Gregory Zuckerman
@GZuckerman
·
1 hour ago

The results are in…Renaissance’s Medallion hedge fund gained 48% last year, net of (still ridic) fees. Before fees, it is about 69%.

That means some of you not just beat the best performing mutual fund 2021 but also Medallion in 2021.:slight_smile:

Regards
James

I made around 20% in stocks overall, not quite as good as my designer models. But that is because I only invest 40% in small caps, the rest into large caps (mostly oil and gold) which didn‘t perform well.

Most of my attention in 2021 was in crypto, and that paid off with returns over 10x of the stock market.

Happy investing in 2022 to everybody!

Florian,

Are you buying and holding in Crypto or do you have an active strategy? And if the latter is the case then where do you test it (i.e. software or site)?

All,

I’d like to put things in perspective as the average investor isn’t 100% in the SP500 but has a portfolio resembling the ETFs aor, aom, and aoa which returned 10.7, 6.8 and 14.7 % respectively (and if they had an advisor their fees would be reduced by that amount). A 60/40 US stocks/bonds would have returned 15.8 % but that is a less realistic portfolio for most investors as they have an international component.

Scott

Yes, and as far as comparisons to fund managers go: they have to play by a different set of rules than I do as an individual investor. Part of their job is maximizing returns, part of their jobs is managing clients (career risk, tracking error, etc.) and part of it is sales/marketing to attract and keep aum. Essentially they have to invest in highly liquid assets that never deviate too far from their benchmark in a method that makes a really cool sales pitch that people want to be a part of. I never get angry phone calls if I under perform the SPY for a quarter or two (as I did in 2018) . I never have to liquidate positions because my clients have piled out in a panic, like in March 2020. I never have to justify or explain my approach or positions to anyone but myself. If I had to play their game, by their rules, I’m sure I wouldn’t perform nearly as well.

Scott,

This is exactly why I pointed out that it is so unbelievable that someone here beat the best performing mutual fund 2021 (67%) and Medallion (69% before fees) in 2021.:slight_smile:

By the way, I think that Florian already mentioned before that he doesn’t backtest his crypto strategies, his strategy is “buy & hold”. This is quote from his post.

I also send you an interesting link which shows a real-time prediction about the positions taken by known successful traders and whales. Pls take a look when you have time.

https://btctools.io/stats/leaderboard

Regards
James

It really shouldn’t be unbelievable. Individual retail investors have so many advantages over mutual funds and hedge funds. They can invest in relatively illiquid stocks, can trade relatively frequently, don’t have to deal with inflows and outflows at precisely the wrong times, and can stomach volatility. I know investors who made over 200% in 2020, and I’m sure there are quite a few who made over 100% in 2021 as well.

I don’t buy it unless the performance is checked and audited (like mutual funds and hedge funds). Perhaps there is some kind of proof that can show us (like account statements).

Just ask any pro, nobody will believe that individual retail investors can beat the performance of Medallion in the long term.

Regards
James

James - there will be some good performances. But like you, I am a bit of a skeptic and would question anything that isn’t independently tracked. You only have to look at the P123 2021 stock-picking contest to see that most people had a so-so year. There were several negative performances, and many of the ports were removed by the authors. It looks like the top stock-picker gained about 26%.

Steve,

Agreed.

Unless we see something that is independently tracked, it is likely all BS.

Regards
James

Hi All,
I was very active with P123 since the beginning and designed the ranking Filip’s Super Value back in the day. I quit using P123 in 2014 as I wanted to focus on other things. I did find the out of sample results mixed. When the pandemic started I bought a massive put end of Feb ‘20 and renewed my P123 subscription to see what to do with my windfall. I remembered doing tests around Vix levels and closed my put and went all in Qqq when Vix spiked above 70. I would not have known that perfect timing without P123 backtesting. I did reran the 100s of ranking and simulations that I had build up till 2014 and to my ‘surprise’ most failed miserably. I looked at them in April/ May ‘20 and the massive drawdowns made them uninvestible. I switched to 100% selling puts from Aug ‘20 - Aug ‘21. This was unbelievable and I made 1MM in 12 months. I used the fundamental charting of P123 for each stock I sold puts against. I have since started to develop new models as Vix has come down and a lot of stocks with high premiums are now no longer a high probability win. I now trade two models (each 10 stocks) that I developed in 2014 that have shown strong results since then. They were the only one’s that did not break down post creation. They both are small cap. I am still catching up and love to learn the api and optimizer tools to automate the process.
I have also started trading a short model which has worked out so far but I find it hard to design a successful short model.
I look forward to reconnecting with all of you and to catch up on all the latest thinking.

All,

There is obviously some selection bias here. Big losers have not been inclined to post in this thread for some reason.

But also, for a relatively large group of retail investors there will be some members who perform better than the best performing hedge funds. And some that perform worse than worst performing hedge funds over a year’s period.

I would like to leave any individuals out of this. That works out well because Daniel Kahneman talks about this with schools (from Thinking Fast and Slow):

"The Gates Foundation found that “most successful schools, on average, are small. These data encouraged the Gates Foundation to make a substantial investment in the creation of small schools…”

Also according to Kahneman:

"If the statisticians who reported to the Gates Foundation had asked about the characteristics of the worst schools, they would have found that bad schools also tend to be smaller than average. The truth is that small schools are not better on average; they are simply more variable. If anything, say Wainer and Zwerling, large schools tend to produce better results, especially in higher grades where a variety of curricular options is valuable."

In case I have to actually say this: some small, volatile retail portfolios will outperform (underperform) the best (worst) hedge funds over a year’s period because they are “more variable.” That is just very basic math.

That some of the portfolios at P123 are more volatile than the Medallion Fund is not in question is it?

If you are a new member you should look at the median performance of the designer models to predict how well you are likely to do until you get some experience. Kahneman has a name for that too: The Base Case.

Best,

Jim

My performance for my personal account was 44.58% for 2021. I was invested around 85% and had on average 15% cash during 2021.
I am using seven P123 strategies. I invested around 5% in QQQ and traded few options (less than 20k).


Azouz,

Thanks for posting this.

It is very clear.

Regards
James